Forum Replies Created
Considering that the ribbon bar is without a question British (see earlier in the thread), that seems very unlikely. And of course would also not explain the MBE/OBE ribbon.
The suggestion of the Rising Sun award is intriguing and clearly obvious, it has just not been possible for me to confirm it through the London Gazette. Perhaps not all awards were gazetted……
Thank you for pointing this out, Megan.
A Chinese spammer slipped in under the radar, and posted well over 2500 spam messages in the image database. It’s been dealt with now, the user is banned and deleted, his IP address blocked, and all of the messages should be gone by now. For the moment, we have a temporary ban on posting any comments in the image database. I hope we can lift this in the next 24 hours.
Thanks you for your cooperation.
Cheers, -Peter (for the Web team)
A Chinese spammer slipped in under the radar, and posted well over 2500 spam messages in the image database. It’s been dealt with now, the user is banned and deleted, his IP address blocked, and all of the messages should be gone by now. For the moment, we have a temporary ban on posing any comments in the image database. I hope we can lift this in the next 24 hours.
Thanks you for your cooperation.
Cheers, -Peter (for the Web team)
As mentioned, this is also being discussed on the BMF. In case you’re interested here is the link: here.
Thanks you, this has also been suggested to me by people over on the BMF, but I can not find it in the London Gazette. I have found awards of the Order of the Rising Sun to other people, so I believe it would have been announced.
The civil OBE of 1927 is the one shown in the ribbon bar (purple), the change in ribbon took place in 1936. Let us briefly look at the facts.
1) The ribbon bar is unquestionable British, because of the tailor’s London address.
2) It contains a ribbon for the civil OBE/MBE prior to 1936
3) The second ribbon is without a doubt that of the DSC
4) The third ribbon is unknown at the moment, we know it’s the third because of the order of precedence on the OBE/MBE and DSC.
We’re assuming this is a genuine bar and at one point in time was worn and was reflecting the correct entitlement of the recipient. I certainly agree with you that it is genuine and not a modern made up thing.
The DSC could effectively not have been awarded prior to 1915 (the CSC was instituted in 1901, but there were only a handful of recipients, all known and none fit the profile). However, the fact there are no WWI trio/pair means the award must be post WWI entitlements for these campaign medals. We also know there are only 7 DSC awards between the wars. Of these only Hurst has a civil OBE. If the DSC was awarded for WWII there would have to be WWII stars and at least a war medal with the group, which invalidates our assumption that the bar would at one point in time reflect the correct entitlement. That period seems to be from Dec 1937 (first DSC) to 24 Nov 1942 when he was awarded a bar to the DSC. At that time we’re so close to 1943 that the 1939-1943 star would need to be added to the group, and I’m sure a new bar was made up to reflect the second DSC and whatever stars he qualified for.
I’m still puzzled about the third medal, it may be a foreign life savings award, I’m trying to research it now. There is quite a bit written about the incidents where he was awarded the OBE and DSC. Here the the LG entry for the OBE.
Attachments:You must be logged in to view attached files.
Some more information. There are only seven inter-wars DSCs awarded (Abbott and Tamplin), but one looks like a promising candidate:
Mr. Joseph William Hurst, OBE, (Admiralty Pilot). DSC awarded 2nd Dec 1938 for China (London Gazette).
OBE (civil) awarded 2 Jun 1927, for recovering their vessel SS "Sunning", which had been captured by pirates 15 Nov 1926 off the coast of China (London Gazette).
It appears he was awarded a bar to the DSC in 1942 as a Lieut. RNR (London Gazette). However, I don’t think that invalidates anything, the ribbon bar you have may be an older one. His full entitlement including WWII campaign medals and the bar to the DSC (a rosette on the ribbon) may be somewhere else. The third ribbon is still a mystery. I now don’t think it’s Danish, I searched the Gazette for British subjects being awarded the Order of Dannebrog, and none appear the have also received a DSC and OBE/MBE.
I’ve some confidence in Hurst, the award of a civil OBE (pre 1935) and a DSC is a very rare combination (without campaign medals at least), and everything fits so far. It would appear he had a career in the Merchant Marine prior to WWII, and perhaps he was awarded a foreign award. Looks like he was quite familiar with China waters, could be a really interesting story here….
The more I think about it, the lack of campaign medals probably indicates a diplomatic corps/merchant marine recipient, consistent with the civil MBE/OBE. If you can nail the foreign decoration (pretty sure it’s not British), it should not be hard. You should be able to search the London Gazette, where the permission to wear the foreign award would be posted, then see if the guy got (or has) an OBE/MBE and DSC. Inter-war years are the most likely, because of the lack of campaign medals.
412 Kennington Rd. SE11 is a London address, in Lambeth more specifically (South East London). There appears to be a cheap cafe there currently (Google it), but was probably a tailor’s shop years ago. It’s unlikely it’s the name of the recipient. I searched the London Gazette for Swinerd (1900-1960), but there does not seem to be anyone awarded either a DSC or OBE with the initials R. N. But I think it is clear the recipient is British and the awards are the DSC and OBE/MBE (civil) of the early type. The last (or first – depending on how you view it) award could be the Order of Dannebrog I guess. The lack of WWI and/or WWII campaign medals are a bit strange. Not much but a start….
I don’t see anything missing from p.11-35. Depending on your internet connection, sometimes it can take a while to load all the images on a page.
I know that John. I have always wrote my impression of each issue and post the cover and Index Page with it. I do this so that a person can look back and see the issue I have wrote about.
Well that is all good, but maybe you could just link to the main pages, to show what you have written about. This also avoids listing the officer’s email addresses on the contents page. We try to keep this under wraps, but it may be a lost cause…
It would not be Danish, for two reasons, 1) A Danish medal would not have the Kaiser Wilhelm portraits, 2) The text is certainly not Danish, but I think the Nord Schleswig dialect (Frisian), the word is ‘un-gedelt’. It means ‘undivided’ as you correctly assumed.