Supreme Court overturns Stolen Valor Act

[JB Floyd]

What does deminish it is the phonies who wear them without having earned them or the ones who claim service and were never in, etc.

Let me offer an alternative thought here. The fakers only diminish temselves, and noone else. To my mind, "Stolen Valor" is a lousy term to begin with, and it implies that valor in some way can be subdivided and enhanced or diminished. I reject that notion. The bunch of morons dressed up like Christmas trees only bring shame and ridicule upon themselves. Their foolishness extends no further than their own person, and certainly does not extend through time.

If a faker has the power to diminish someone else's action, how many fakers would it take to erase a legitimate valorous action? Would 100 fakers make Desmond Doss only 90% of a hero? Would Marine recruits be told of John Basilone's actions with the footnote that he's less of a hero now that some fakers strutted around wearing unearned awards 60+ years after the fact? I don't think so.

To ascribe to a faker the power to diminish an unrelated action gives him far, far more power than he merits. Public shame, as well as laughing and pointing, is all we need to give to the faker.

[Jim Barker]

DoD to build medals database. I posted this previously in the general chat section but didn't have a link. Here's the link:

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012 ... force-a.nl

I put it here for wider coverage.

Jim

[JB Floyd]

While a great idea, and one that many of us have been working on for many years (Al Gleim's medal rolls, Brandon Weigand's General Orders indexes, Nick McDowell's work on the Navy Cross and DSC, etc.), it's not as easy as it might appear. Many GOs from WWII don't exist in any real form; modern Army awards are made via Special Orders and there is no centralized repository; the restrictions of the various Privacy Acts preclude public release of some data; there are serious opsec and personal security issues involved, etc.

While the researcher in me applauds the effort, another part of me is appalled that the government will build a data base that will have the primary purpose of fueling the "Stolen Valor" vigilantes. There will be decorated veterans who will be hounded unmercifully because their names do not appear in the data base. There will be efforts to include individuals who never received the award they claim. And of course the Pentagon will ask for money to fund this mandate, which will be ignored.

I'm not expecting this magic data base to be useful for many, many years, if ever.

[kjf101]

Hi Jeff,
Maybe I posted my reply the wrong way. I did mean to say the phonies deminish the real hero's. You are correct in that they only bring shame upon themselves. The valor or service of others still stands.

kevin

[Jim Barker]

More on the Pentagon's database from a DoD press briefing on 10 Jul 2012:

DOD News Briefing with George Little and Capt. Kirby from the Pentagon
***
Q: I want to ask you on a more contemporary issue that happened a couple weeks ago, the Supreme Court's decision on the Stolen Valor case.

Is the department reviewing the decision to come up with measures to help the public basically vet fakes via a database like the Military Times does or some other mechanism that would help -- help the public determine when some of these claims are erroneous?

MR. LITTLE: Very good question, Tony. And I know this is an issue of importance to many Americans and too many servicemembers.

The answer is yes. We are taking another look at that decision. We are exploring options to stand up a database of valor awards and medals. We haven't arrived at a final conclusion yet, but that process is ongoing and the goal is to stand up such a database.

Q: Is there a -- if you don't -- you might not know this -- but it would be database looking back to the -- through the Vietnam War or the mid-'60s or over the last 20 years? Has any of the parameters been laid out yet?

MR. LITTLE: I don't have specific parameters for you today.

Obviously, that's something that officials are taking a close look at. There are some complexities involved in looking back into history. We would obviously hope to be able to go as far back as possible, but we also want there to be integrity in the data.

So these are factors that are being weighed, and we're in the process of exploring those options. So the door is open.

Q: Did the secretary launch an initiative or did Mr. Johnson, the general counsel, launch it, as far as you know?

MR. LITTLE: The secretary supports the initiative, which is being led by Undersecretary Conaton.

Q: Just a follow-up on that: This -- this decision to relook at the database was -- came after the Supreme Court decision, correct?

MR. LITTLE: That is correct.

Q: And has there been any -- you know, the medal in question at the -- in the court case wasn't the Medal of Honor, right. So has there been a thought of -- you know, there are not that many of those. I mean, that would strike as relatively easy to get a, sort of, database of the, you know, one or two most prestigious medals out there. Has that -- rather than every Bronze Star and Silver Star --

MR. LITTLE: I think we have pretty strong information control around Medals of Honor already. But we're talking about not just Medals of Honor, but a wide range in a very large number of other awards inside the military.

CAPT. KIRBY: These are valor awards. These are personal awards you're given in valorous conditions. And, I mean, that can be everything from a Bronze Star right on up.

But you're right about the Medal of Honor. We have a hall just down -- just down the way here in the Pentagon where every single name is listed.

But that's what we're focusing on.

Q: OK.

So they're in -- in other words, there's not a, sort of -- it's always been too difficult to do every -- too expensive, too big for every valor award, but, you know, Navy Crosses and, you know, Medals of Honor in a searchable database strike me as something that could be enacted at a lower cost and a --

MR. LITTLE: We're exploring a lot of options. I don't know that I can speculate as to -- as to what the final outcome might be, but the goal, of course, would be to try to develop a database as large as possible, again, ensuring the integrity of the information contained in the database.

Q: As you unfold -- as this unfolds, it'd be good for you to explain to the public why the Pentagon rejected this in 2005 and how things have advanced technologically in terms of records-keeping that allows you seven years later to revisit the issue and possibly set up a database.

MR. LITTLE: OK.

Q: That would be helpful to the public debate on this.

MR. LITTLE: All right. We'll take a look at that.
***

Jim

[megan]

Of course, this might just be the OMSA's door in... if a group of researchers from the membership were to offer to CREATE the database for them!

That would put the Society on an inside track to having some weight behind their arguments when suggesting how the SVA could be improved so as to preserve collectors' freedom to pursue their hobby whilst guarding against the rogues who make false claims... and would also give those of us interested in researching US medals access to the data we're after.

I'm not good at recipient research but I write databases well (IT lecturer & Chartered Fellow of the British Computer Society), and could give you a framework for data entry, online and searchable.

Just a random thought

Megan
http://www.medals.org.uk/

[panarion]

We have had this issue in Australia as well with some men claiming to be veterans of the Vietnam war.

Thanks to a very active Veterans association ( both the RSL and Vietnam veterans association) means it is harder to get away with claims of serving or rights to medals. actually if you do get issued a medal in Australia to get a replacement issued is a bureaucratic pain in the proverbial and takes a great deal of time with a lot of substantiation required.

There have been quite a few men who have been "outed" after parading on Anzac day wearing medals that they claimed were their own.I cannot recall what the outcomes were but i do know that the RSL has been lobbying hard for a few years now to the Government to increase penalties.

I am not aware of any restriction to buy, sell, collect, auction , donate or inherit or indeed wear medals in Australia. generally respect is shown on ANZAC day by the relatives of a deceased servicemen by wearing the recipients medals on the opposite side of the chest to the correct side.